How to Negotiate through Conflict with Neil Dunsmore

Award winning speaker and former hostage negotiator in the correctional facilities of Ontario, Neil Dunsmore joins me today to discuss how to negotiate through conflict. A topic that every leader needs, and he shares some great practical tips and tools that will help you become even better at something we all hate….Conflict!

Here’s a glance at what you’ll learn from our discussion in this episode:

• Understand who the ‘hostage takers’ are, who the ‘hostages’ are, and why the conflict happened
• Conflict is not about today - what else is going on in their lives?
• You don’t have to be sympathetic to be empathetic
• Remember that negotiations often have long term effects.

For more information and to learn more about Neil, go to http://www.neildunsmore.com/

If you’re ready to transform your entrepreneurial frustrations into freedoms by cutting through the chaos and using frameworks that help you run an even better business and enjoy an even better life, simply go to:   www.Mohr.Coach

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Transcript

I always had to understand three things in every negotiation, who the hostage takers are, who the hostages are, and why this happened. And here's the biggest key, particularly when it's conflict. If you're in a conflict with a customer, or a staff member, and it's out of hand. This is a situation where people start yelling and screaming at you. You need to understand one thing. It's not about today, especially if they're that angry. There are other things if it's an employee, there's other things going on their life that brought them to this point. If it's a customer, what do you do for a living? What is it you're selling me, I had a business I sold paint wallpaper carpet blinds. There is nothing in that product selection that is worth people screaming and yelling and calling people names. It just isn't. I've been in the most tense situations where your life is in danger. Those are times where you can get excited. Everything else doesn't mean anything. So I always had to say what else is going on in their life? That's brought it to this.

Pete Mohr  01:05

Hey, it's Pete and welcome to another edition of the simplifying entrepreneurship podcast. It's the series designed to help you change your entrepreneurial worries and wants into wins by providing the tips and tools that will help you cut through the chaos and create clarity using the systems that will transform your business and life as a leader. Always remember you lead your business, and it shouldn't be leading you. And today I had the opportunity to speak with Neil Dunsmore and Neil is a professional speaker. And he also teaches on all things around negotiation and customer relationships and thriving during conflict. Lots of great stuff. I really enjoyed our conversation here today on negotiation. One thing is for sure that we negotiate all day, every day, whether we're leaders or whether we're just everyday life negotiation is such a big piece of the puzzle. So I hope you enjoy my conversation with Neil Dunsmore. Hey, Neil, a pleasure to have you here on the simplifying entrepreneurship podcast today.

Neil  02:08

Well, thanks for having me, Peter, it's always a pleasure to sit down and chat with you. So I'm looking forward to this.

Pete Mohr  02:14

Yeah, me too. And, you know, taking it back to in the past when you used to do some negotiation. And tell us a little bit about where you got started with negotiation, Neil, and we'll get right into some negotiation talk today.

Neil  02:26

Well, so I got started with the Minister of Correctional Services, and a solicitor general, that's a long winded name, but that's what they were called back in the 80s. And I was a corrections officer at the Wellington Detention Center, which has now been knocked down. And they trained me as a hostage negotiator. And I think it was probably the best skill set that I have ever learned from any occupation, because it transcends every occupation. I mean, if you think about negotiation, you're doing it every day, whether you're negotiating with your kids, you're negotiating with your wife, whether you are a customer or a business person, you're always in negotiation. And if you do it right, you usually come out ahead,

Pete Mohr  03:02

almost every interaction is some sort of negotiation, isn't it? Neal?

Neil  03:06

It is, and you have to decide. And that's the biggest lesson, I think I can leave it with you today, you have to decide what you want, what do you want, and what you're willing to give up to get it, if anything, and how important what you want is to it's amazing to me how many times I meet business people, and they don't have a plan for negotiating in any situation. They wing it, and most of us do, right? You're winging it everyday.

Pete Mohr  03:32

most business owners have never taken any formal training whatsoever on negotiation, even though it's something that we're doing every single day, it's kind of all day long.

Neil  03:40

It is simple. Once you learn the techniques, it's really simple. Use it in every aspect of your life. And suddenly you start to find out the path is easier. These so many particular business people are embroiled in conflict, you're in, you're in conflict with your bank or a conflict with your customers, you're in conflict with your supplier, and you're in conflict with your employees. And it's all because you are winging it. And that's the key is to have a plan and knowledge is king effect. negotiation for me is all about knowledge and preparation. If you've got enough information, and you're prepared well enough, you're going to get what you want what you need to get out of it. Because the other side, rarely prepared. It'll shock you because every hostage negotiation I did you have to remember I was a corrections officer. So the hostage negotiations I was doing were inside correctional facilities. People are already incarcerated and something has happened and they've taken hostages while we're not letting them out. It's not a possibility. So you're kind of almost set before you go that your goal is don't let them go. They don't get out. Right. And so now from here and then it became easier. But I always had to understand three things in every negotiation, who the hostage takers are who the hostages are. And why this happened. And here's the biggest key, particularly when it's conflict. If you're in a conflict with a customer, or a staff member, and it's out of hand, this is a situation where people start yelling and screaming at you. You need to understand one thing. It's not about today, especially if they're that angry. There are other things. If it's an employee, there's other things going on their life that brought them to this point. If it's a customer, what do you do for a living? What is it, you're selling me, I had a business I sold paint wallpaper, carpet blinds. There is nothing in that product selection that is worth people screaming and yelling and calling people names. It just isn't. I've been in the most tense situations where your life is in danger. Those are times where you can get excited. Everything else doesn't mean anything. So I always had to say, what else is going on in their life? That's brought it to this,

Pete Mohr  05:54

would you just down a note asking that sort of stuffer?

Neil  05:57

That's a gentle conversation. I mean, I can if you want a quick story, but why don't we just get right into what we're dealing with customers. I had a customer come in, I was in the paint wallpaper industry in the 90s, when the wallpaper industry was falling apart, they were in serious trouble. wallpaper was was going out of style. And printing had its issues because we had the advent of the computer. So the printers were having their problems. And so the whole industry was in trouble. And what that did for me as a retailer, my supply chain was not always dependable. And you know, the retailer when your supply chain is not dependable, you're in trouble. For the most part, we could get what we were after. Sometimes it took some time. So gentlemen comes into my store, and he orders three borders to go around his daughter's room. Okay, perfect three borders, cost them it's about $45 profit on it is somewhere around 15 bucks. Yep. If I'm lucky, he makes his order the girl the ladies that worked for me put the order in. They tell him it'll be here in a week. He's happy with that he picks colors based on the sample, he goes home, he paints the room, the week comes the date the night before we get a fax message that says out of stock, changing the delivery date by a week. So we call them next morning, don't bother coming in, we just got notification from the supplier. It's going to be another week. Now I'm in a panic because this is this indicates pattern to make. And I called him and I warned him that it could go again. And he said alright, as long as I know ahead of time, sure enough, it did. But he got the phone call to come in. He said, that'll be fine. All of a sudden, on a Saturday morning with a store full of people. He is screaming at me. And he's telling me, you're not paying your bills. That's why you're not getting wallpaper. Are you in financial trouble. And now you have absolutely ruined my life. Now, it's wallpaper. It can't ruin anybody's life. But how angry he was, was out of control and people in the store. Were getting afraid. So I calmly said to him, I understand your frustration. And my goal here is to help with that. So come on back to my office. Oh, what do you want to get me off the floor? so people can't hear me? I said, No, I want you to come and sit down. So we can both be in a relaxed environment. But he was absolutely correct. I wanted him off of that floor. So that the shop and the customers didn't have to hear that. But most of all, they didn't. I didn't want them to have to hear what he was going to say. Because when we got back in the room, I said Now listen, just use Robert, that's not his real name. But, Robert, really, it's wallpaper. What is going on? That you're this irate about wallpaper because listen to me, we can pick a new wallpaper that matches the color that it went with. We can fix all that if I have to. I'll give you a free gallon of paint to repaint the bedroom to match the new wallpaper. Or you can wait for this. But it doesn't call for your actions in the store today. I'm more concerned about what's going on with you. And it took him about 30 seconds. And his whole body language changed Peter and he explained to me that he was diagnosed with a disease that he was concerned was going to end his life. And he wanted to haul paper he wanted the room done before that happened. Now, when you start talking to him, turns out the disease was diabetes, type two diabetes. Well, type two diabetes is very common. His whole life was in turmoil. Because he had to change his diet he had to change and so what he was saying today had nothing to do with today. And once I got to that, well things things changed. And I managed to calm him down and I said look, here's a promise I'll make you if something happens to you before this wallpaper comes in. When I get it I will personally wallpaper your room your daughter's rooms. So they had that memory of you have if you're that concerned just that somebody would show that kind of empathy, which is a huge thing in negotiation is empathy is different than sympathy and feel sorry for In fact, I was upset with him, because type two diabetes runs in my family. And I know Yes, it's a big deal. But no, it does not give you the right to go and start yelling and making accusations at somebody else. But I understood not being sympathetic, but being empathetic, every word I said, After that, will this if I was him, and somebody said this to me, in his frame of mind, how will I act, and if it was going to escalate it, I didn't say it. Or I found a different way to say it, so I could lower the temperature. Okay, that's, that's the key. So that's how, you know, it didn't happen today. It had nothing to do with today, it had to do with life. Same with hostage situations in the jail, there was something that happened today that blew the bomb that blew the lid off, it was an accumulation of problems for months on end that brought us to hear. So having the knowledge about who you're dealing with and what you're going on. So as soon as I realized I got the knowledge from that gentleman, that it was a medical problem, then I can start addressing that. And that solved the wallpaper issue,

Pete Mohr  11:06

you're solving the other problem in order to solve the problem that you have. Right, right.

Neil  11:10

And that's because every problem is attached to an emotion, every emotion is a reaction to a situation. And if you can't line them up, if that emotion, and reaction isn't related to what you've done in your relationship with that individual you're working with, then you have to solve that in order to be able to get what you need. Because negotiation, the number one thing that every business owner should know, before you go into any negotiation, you should have the answer to this question. What do I need? Am I negotiating with a supplier? What do I need you and I know that there's a particular profit margin you have to make as a business owner, in order to pay your bills. So you should always know what's the least I'm willing to take in this relationship, what the pie in the sky, and then anything in between, if I feel comfortable, I can settle for it. And notice I said feel comfortable. You know, there are negotiators out there who say negotiate the win, never give in, you know, use these techniques, etc, etc. And you'll always get what you want. Okay, I work on a basis of what do I need? And if you if you really think about it, and you're you're a good person? Yeah, I'm in business for one reason, and one reason only. And that's to make profit, because the profit feeds my family, for sure. But I'm not here to get rich off of one customer. And I'm not here to get rich off of one supplier. So you have to you have to realize that what's best for you in the long term, because if you get your needs crossed, all of a sudden, you might short term gain, but long term defeat.

Pete Mohr  12:45

Yeah, I love that idea of long term. I mean, that's how I look at in my businesses and my dealings, I'm always looking at that long term effect. And, you know, whether it's with my team, with my clients, or with my suppliers, it's always about the long term repercussions, and how, you know, in your experiences, Neil, how have you worked some of those deals out where maybe you take a little bit less now and a little bit more later or a little bit more now and a little bit less later? Like how have those worked out in your negotiations over the years?

Neil  13:14

Yeah, it fairly well. And here's the here's a big thing. It's a full disclosure, I own the color wheel paint wallpaper store, franchisees and franchise ORS it's a class, and you have to understand who's in it for what, and it was a learning curve for me to understand that we're not a team, the major franchise or is it for their shareholders and themselves, and they'll help you to a certain extent, but when push comes to shove, they're about the money. It's not a team effort at that at that stage. So I lost that business in 2008, when the economy crashed, and there just wasn't enough meat left on the bone for me, and it took me too long to realize that. But here's the big kicker. Clearly, I did things right with my customers, because that was 2008. This is 2022. And I got a phone call this past weekend, where somebody was finally moving out of the house that I had helped them, you know, wallpaper I had helped to put the flooring and put the shutters in, and then we bought a new place. How much would you charge me to come over and give me advice on what to put in. And you know what, I was thrilled that a customer after all those years and you know, would reach out and reach out personally. So I said, You know what? grab some coffee, I'd love to do it again. And I went over and I helped them but people call me all the time over that stuff. So I had a good I did it right with my customers. Right? Not perfect. There were still customers that weren't weren't happy from time to time. And that's because that's where if you're going to get conflict in a business, that's where it's going to come. But here's the other thing I made sure all my staff when I close that down, I knew what they needed, because I had the knowledge I knew them intimately in a small enough business, you know who your staff are. So when you're negotiating salaries with them, I know what they need. I know what I need. And now we're both walking a path to make sure we can get it together. Now, sometimes that would say, I know what you need. I can't get to there in this first step. But I promise you, if you stay with me, I can get you there in three or four years. And yeah, you might be able to get more money at this place right now. But if you stay with me, you're going to have a better opportunity in the end. And we're going to have fun, because we're a small group and event. And those ladies that work for me theater, we're all still good friends. Three of them ended up at the at a different store all together, and I walk in there and they go, come on and spend some time with me like old time. And they don't hesitate to call and ask questions.

Pete Mohr  15:41

Yeah, that's great.

Neil  15:42

So that's, that's about taking the time to understand what they needed, what I needed. And make it a journey. It's a long term game, you can always get short term gain, but it won't serve you in the end.

Pete Mohr  15:55

I think that's a great, great spot to tag our comments here today, we've already come to, you know, sort of the limits of our time. And you know what, Neil, I think we should maybe recap and do one of these, again, down the road. Hopefully, if you're into that I love talking about negotiation, such an integral part of what we do. You know, like you said earlier, everything in life is a negotiation, and going through all of that stuff, whether it's for business or for personal or whatever. We're always in negotiations, and if possible here, could you tell everybody how to get ahold of you if they want to learn more about Neil Dunn's more in what you do?

Neil  16:31

Sure, my website is www.NeilDunsmore.com. And that's easy email if they want to reach out to me and talk about conflict or or have me speak to their organization. Neil@NeilDunsmore.com is the email address. If you can remember my name, you can find me at my job, right. Try and make myself memorable.

Pete Mohr  16:54

That's great, Neil. Well, I really appreciate your time here today enjoyed the conversation. I'm sure our listeners will too. And thanks for coming out here and joining us on the simplifying entrepreneurship podcast. Thanks for having me, Peter. Right on we'll talk soon. Looking forward to it. Think about how you can apply Neil's tips on negotiation for simplifying entrepreneurship. You know, what can you do to put these tips into action? So much was discussed here, decide what you want, and what you're willing to give up the importance of knowledge and preparation. You know, the three things that you need to know you need to know who the hostage takers are, who the hostages are, and why this all happened in the first place. Remembering conflict is not about today, and what else is going on in their lives where they came to this particular point, that conflict arose. And you don't have to be sympathetic to be empathetic. Lots of great tidbits here. But thanks again for spending some time with us and so that you can have an even better business and entrepreneurial life. If you liked the podcast, please share it with your friends, invite them to listen and most of all, subscribe to the podcast so you can hear future episodes. For more information on my coaching and leadership programs visit www.mohr.coach email me directly at Pete@Mohr.coach and until next time, make it a great day.

18:28

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